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BANG FOR THE BITE
Free-range or pasture-raised, organic eggs can cost a dollar or so more per dozen, but considering the health and eco-benefits, these eggs are truly golden.
COCKTAIL FACT
The world record for the most hard-boiled eggs eaten is held by Virginian Sonya Thomas, who ate 65 of them in 6 min and 40 sec.
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home › tip library › Organic Eggs
Which came first: the chicken, the egg, or the antibiotic?
The Bite
We wish we knew the answer, but one thing's certain: Antibiotics fed to caged laying hens in factory farms end up in their eggs. Opt for pasture-raised or free-range, organic eggs for happier chickens and drug-free omelets.The Benefits
- Healthier hard-boileds. Residue from antibiotics and other chems fed to conventionally raised chickens may increase the risk of disease.
- Egg-static chickens. Pasture-raised and free-range hens often have access to outdoor areas and many eat only organic, non-GMO feed. (Note: While the word organic is federally regulated for eggs, the terms pasture-raised and free-range aren't, so you gotta investigate yourself to ensure your eggs are truly humanely sourced.)
- Antibiotic-free egg salad. Antibiotics given to poultry contribute to the problem of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, which make diseases harder and harder to fight.
Personally Speaking
Jen took free-range and organic to the next level by adopting seven chicks and building a coop in her backyard. See the chicks gobble some organic grapes with Jen's grandma, here.Wanna Try?
- Organic Valley - a network of small farms across the country with consistently good eggs ($3/dozen).
- Local Harvest - locate a nearby farmers' market for the freshest eggs you can buy.
- BackyardChickens - learn how to raise your own chickens.
Oct 03,2007
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All editorial suggestions in this tip are the result of testing and a preference for the tip topic. No advertiser has paid to have its company referenced in the tip. For more information, please read our Editorial Policy.
Putting the Chicken Before the Eggs
Strangely, I've never liked the smell, the texture, the taste of eggs. Breakfasts at diners, for me, have always consisted of side order items -rather than huevos rancheros or garden omelets, it's always been hash browns (extra crispy), English muffins (extra butter), and OJ (extra large).
And maybe because I grew up on a farm with a small population of very free-range, healthy, egg-laying hens, I never thought about factory farms and the conditions of our fowl friends. After learning more about them, I admit that my appetite for eggs has not improved. But while reading Reason for Hope by the miraculous Jane Goodall, I found out that there are wonderful people adopting chickens from these factories, taking them out of their tiny cages and giving them the chance to feel sunlight and walk for the first time. If you have a little extra space in your yard, some time, and a lovin' heart, check out Farm Sanctuary, a national project that offers refuge and adoption services for neglected farm animals.
-Jenifer Morgan...off to fry up some potatoes...
And maybe because I grew up on a farm with a small population of very free-range, healthy, egg-laying hens, I never thought about factory farms and the conditions of our fowl friends. After learning more about them, I admit that my appetite for eggs has not improved. But while reading Reason for Hope by the miraculous Jane Goodall, I found out that there are wonderful people adopting chickens from these factories, taking them out of their tiny cages and giving them the chance to feel sunlight and walk for the first time. If you have a little extra space in your yard, some time, and a lovin' heart, check out Farm Sanctuary, a national project that offers refuge and adoption services for neglected farm animals.
-Jenifer Morgan...off to fry up some potatoes...
Biter Comments...
Amen! This may be the best tip I've seen in the year I've spent reading IdealBite. This is not only an issue of animal cruelty but also one of public health. Unnecessary usage of antibiotics in agriculture, especially factory farming of chickens and cattle, is a huge contributor to antibiotic-resistant pathogenic bacteria. (I'd cite sources, but there are thousands... go check out www.asm.org for a start, it's the American Society for Microbiology's website, or www.hsus.org, the Humane Society of the US.) There's a reason they've already banned these farming methods in Europe. Well done, Chief Biters!
It should be noted that while I completely agree with the use of cage free and antibiotic free eggs and chicken meat, I do have to point out that you have one of your points a little off.
Even in terrible, crowded, and inhumane commercial laying operations, growth hormones are never used on laying hens, only meat birds. In fact, use of growth hormones is outlawed by the USDA for egg laying hens.
It doesn't make it right, but in the spirit of transparency of facts, I thought it should be pointed out. Thanks.
I've never liked the smell, taste or texture of eggs, either. That's one of the many reasons it was so easy for me to go vegan.
Although I understand that egg-lovers out there would love to be able to believe in a humanely-produced egg, we must consider all of the factors involved in the production of eggs, which include that the male chicks, at age ONE DAY, are slaughtered, usually via woodchipper, because they are useless. And then there's the fact that "spent" hens are slaughtered, as well. And, as others pointed out, just because there isn't a cage doesn't mean all is well. There is still de-beaking as well as forced molting in most cage-free facilities, tens of thousands of birds can be in one shed, and they still don't see the light of day most of the time.
Please see Peaceful Prairie Sanctuary's "The Free-Range Myth" for the real story about free-range eggs at http://www.peacefulprairie.org/freerange1.html.
I love the idea of raising a few chicks in the backyard - but how do the neighbours react? If you live in a city or suburb, are there ways to make them less...smelly and noisy? Can you have as few as two?
Years ago I raised an adorable rooster (the result of my high school's advanced biology class's experiment in incubation) in my suburban Philadelphia backyard until he was quite large and the neighbors started to make veiled comments about his morning crowing.
I thought he was the best pet EVAR, but the neighbors did not and so he went to live happily on my aunt's farm in a full henhouse (where he lived to be quite old and randy). I'm really not sure how I'd handle that now, seeing as I can't claim ignorance with zoning, but it was a cool thing for my mom to allow at the time.
My whole purpose in commenting today, acutally, was to say that the picture of Jen with her granny and all the animals crowded around them peacefully--a puppy dog, a kitty, the chickens--warmed my heart.
I have a slightly different take on this issue: be careful where you get your information from. I'm currently in vet school, and we're actually discussing the layer hen industry in a few weeks in class. Summary of what's to follow: if you look for the "United Egg Producers Certified" logo on the egg carton, the hens that laid those eggs are taken care of better than most free-range or outdoor flocks.
First point is that there aren't antibiotic residues in eggs. There are about three (yes, THREE) antibiotics that the USDA allows to be used in chickens period. When an antibiotic is given to chickens, the eggs from every chicken given the antibiotics are destroyed for a certain period of time. This time is called the egg withhold time, and is closely monitored by testing eggs sent to market. After the egg withhold time, the eggs no longer have antibiotic residues in them; that's the point of the withhold period. So the myth going around that there are antibiotics in our meat, eggs and dairy product is a flat-out lie propagated by people not familiar with the industry and the regulation.
Second point, about the debeaking. First, the process is very clean - no dirty blades, no scummy guy who hasn't bathed in days holding the birds. That kind of thing would lead to infection, which would mean either the expense of treating the birds or the expense of the birds dying. And if a company wants to be certified by the United Egg Producers (major regulatory body of the industry), they have to use clean, humane and fast equipment manned by people who know exactly what they are doing. Also, most of us are familiar with the phrase "pecking order". This came from people watching backyard flocks where the less important chicken(s) are pecked by the more important chicken(s). I've raised laying hens and have at times had to remove a hen from the flock so she wasn't PECKED TO DEATH. Chickens are NOT nice social creatures all the time, they will CANNIBALIZE their flock-mates and they will KILL them. I've watched laying hens try to kill weaker laying hens they had been with for several years; I've pulled their bodies out from where they tried to hide and seen the blood and feathers that were everywhere. Debeaking is done, WHEN NECESSARY, to keep chickens from eating each other. If a flock can be safely kept together without needing to debeak them, that's what the farmers will do. It's not just the welfare issue; it's economics: the machine, the time and the labor to debeak 10,000 chickens costs a lot of money. If the chickens would be fine without debeaking, they wouldn't be debeaked.
Finally, the concept of 'seeing sunlight' as being better for chickens is also a warm-fuzzy, feel-good myth. Chickens outside are exposed to all sorts of diseases that are present in the wild bird population (can we say bird flu?). Before egg production was moved to indoor facilities, mortality rates in flocks (the number of chickens that would die each year) was 40% or more. Figure a little less than half the flock would die, and this was usually due to diseases. Now that we can PROTECT chickens from those diseases by in effect quarantining them, why would we put them back outside and EXPOSE them to the diseases again?
Yes, it LOOKS bad to the general public when they see rows of hens in cages in a huge building. What you can't see is that there aren't bloody feathers strewn everywhere because a chicken just got attacked, there aren't chickens sneezing or gasping for air because they are sick with influenza or other diseases, and there aren't any piles of dead chickens lying around because the chickens are well cared for and healthy.
Seeing as "free-range" does not guarantee much as far as a way of life for chickens - does anyone know if the "certified humane" label is better? My guess is that it would be - but does that mean that the hens are roaming free and happy, or just slightly better conditions while still on a factory farm? thanks for any feedback!
I have been eating free-range and organic eggs all my life. When I was growing up we had a couple dozen chickens, ducks and geese that provided eggs. After I moved into the city, I continued to purchase organic eggs because the factory eggs didn't taste as good.
In appropriate news, I was reading in the paper today about a new Californai ballot initiative that will begin collecting signatures this week. If passed in November 2008, it will add humane growing restrictions for chickens, pigs and veal to the California Constitution. Right now, in California, 8 chickens are kept in a 2 foot square cage. This is larger than the industry standard but not large enough. The measure would provide larger individual cages with nesting boxes for the hens and promote free-range growth. I'll be signing and voting for both. The measure needs 434,000 signatures before February 20th to get on the November 08 ballot.
As far as raising them, my neighbors raise both chickens and pigeons. The pigeons are by far more of a nuisance than the chickens. I'd raise a few hens myself but my dog is a known chicken killer and I wouldn't want her terrorizing them.
Having done my master with hens and kept many allow me to react to: "Chickens are NOT nice social creatures all the time, they will CANNIBALIZE their flock-mates and they will KILL them. "
Chickens are in fact extremely nice, and very social, if kept in a way that allows their natural social order to occur. That is when kept in a proper fsmily group size, freely moving with good cover if a hen is approached aggressively it hides in cover and reappears later. Under these circumstance the flock is harmonious with no blood, let alone death and cannibalism.
For the story behind United Egg Producers and their labels, read The Way We Eat: Why Our Food Choices Matter, by Peter Singer and Jim Mason. The most excerpted passage in the book is about UEP and is reprinted all over the Internet. Here's one place: http://www.thevegetariansite.com/ethics_eggssinger.htm
The root of the problem here is not the treatment the chickens are receiving but the fact that they are being used as a mean to satisfy the taste buds of moral agents (because it's not a matter of necessity, we can have optimal health without consuming eggs). Since they are sentient beings like us, their liberty, body integrity and life are important for them in the same way our liberty, body integrity and life are important for us.
Kicking the antibiotic habit is great. Better yet, reduce or cut out animal products altogether. A UN report issued in November 2006 concluded that worldwide animal food industries generate more global warming than all of the world transportation sources combined. Animal industries are also a major source of water and air pollution. As the world population expands, it will be increasingly important for all of us to move toward plant-based diets.
Having lived in areas with intensive egg and poultry farms, I can testify first hand that these operations are horrible to the environment. That's what inspired me to make the switch from vegetarian to vegan 13 years ago and I've never regretted it even once.
Many people think buying local eggs or having chickens in their own yard is the solution. The truth is that even if those local chickens are free-ranging and well cared for, they were born and hatched in intensive factory farming environments and shipped out so people can enjoy backyard chickens. Their mothers are treated as nothing but breeding machines. The majority of the males are still killed in incredibly cruel ways.
My father used to buy chicks for us to raise, take eggs from and eventually slaughter. He bought them from a local farm supply store. One year an employee told me that when the shipment of chicks came in often as many as half of them were dead from dehydration and shock from being shipped in cardboard boxes. The store simply picked the live chicks out from the dead and put them in a big plastic bin up front to sell. Further we had to buy sacks of chicken feed (that had also been trucked in) to supplement the bugs and plants they ate.
The best thing for people who care about animals and about the environment is to stop eating animals and/or their secretions. I'm serious when I say I eat delicious food and eat well without having cracked (or tasted) an egg in more than a decade.
Just this weekend I visited an animal sanctuary where chickens and roosters rescued from terrible situations get to enjoy their lives finally. They are gentle and sweet. I petted them and fed them strawberries. They are only violent when living in stressful, cruel confinement.
The UN report is flawed. It includes the transportation of feed, animals and meat products in the category of the meat industry and not within the transportation industry. If those outputs were properly shifted, it would be more accurate. Not saying that people shouldn't consume less meat and they should by all means avoid factory farmed meat but the report itself is flawed and merely propaganda.
I would also like to point out that the majority of worldwide rainforest deforestation is for sugar, corn, soy and palm plantations. Not meat.
There are other more valid reasons to push for diet changes in the world's population. The UN report shouldn't be high on that list.
Yes, it's economics-- that's the problem. Sentient living beings are being bred, raised, and killed for profit, and yet animal products are unnecessary for human health in a society with so many options-- like ours.
In their natural state, hens regard their eggs as their own. Domestication of itself is unnatural.
In the "free-range" and "cage-free" industries, male chicks are still thrown away. Debeaking is still done without anesthetic. And hens who've outlived their usefulness get killed just like the others. Absent specieism, this can hardly be called "humane".
I agree, it's important to move toward a plant-based diet, not only for the environment but for the animals themselves.
See comment above regarding United Egg Producers. They are NOT what they appear. i highly recommend the same book "The Ethics of What We Eat" is what it's called now will give you more information than you ever wanted. But be careful, i became a vegan after reading it.
The Humane Society of the US is in business with marketing animals.
Yikes! This is an incredibly heated blog! I had no idea there was such vehemence surrounding this issue!
I just wanted to post a comment for people who like to eat eggs, but are afflicted with a fowl stench afterwards. (sorry about the pun) While conventional and organic eggs from the supermarket cause my posterior to stink, those from my friend's farm do not. He has his chickens in a freestanding hen house, with plenty of yard and cover (fenced to protect from predators). I don't know exactly what the factors are that result in the change, but I do know there is a difference. Strange. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the breed either, because he has several different types. So, if you have a similar affliction, this may be a solution for you.
Thanks for all your comments - especially to Micaela for the correction on growth hormones. The Benefits section should read, "Residue from antibiotics and other chems fed to conventionally raised chickens may increase the risk of disease." We've made the change to the Tip as it appears in the Tip Library. (Oh, and none of these eggs are to be confused with genetically modified, cancer-preventing eggs! - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/4607653.stm)
I've had chickens for years. Chickens will go cannibal if they are too hot, or in terribly closed quarters.
We feed our chickens non- antibiotic grain, and they free range within a very lavishly large fenced area.
Eggs of this nature are noticably sweeter than store bought eggs, organic, or otherwise... probably due to the fact that they may be weeks old by the time they reach the store shelves...
Just as your fridge picks up odors and food will taste like the scent in the fridge ..eggshells are porous and will absorb a funky fridge smell, which gets cooked, eaten, and yes, and stinky right through to the final exit...
The true backyard and farm fresh eggs chicken owners consume [even if we do throw away the yolk] are only a few hours to a couple of days old.
Please spend a moment seeing for yourself that the store bought eggs that go to distribution have a 564 hour space from farm to table. Check it out,
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/Y4392E/y4392e0f.htm
The white of the egg is filled with protein and quite frankly if we let the chickens lay eggs and didn't remove those eggs from the nest there would be salmonella gone wild!
Gee Jenny, I wouldn't call it vehemence. In my view it's straight talk. Thanks to organizations like HSUS, people think they're doing animals a favor by eating them-- which among other problems is irrational.
How about not expecting chickens to lay eggs at all?
I'm a daily reader of Ideal Bite and a Vegan. Usually I like what I read but today both the daily tip and the related tip are foolish. Both the chicken and the cow get treated horribly in the end so it really doesn't matter whether they are free-range, organic or whatever. The cow is still be pregnated every three months with puss oozing out of it's udders because it's being milked way more than a baby cow would drink from the mother. The chicken is only used for no more than two years and then basically killed for nothing else but it's done producing eggs. So why bother saying that it's better to eat anti-biotic free when the it's the animal that is suffering!
Is this supposed to be a vegan blog???
I agree, Amy.
About the environment, soybean monocultures are grown because animal agribusiness uses land to grow feed for animals-- not that vegans need to live on soy as there are other plant proteins. I think veganism has a place in discussions about agriculture and the environment.
A receipt for humane raised eggs:
1. Be sure the hens signed a contract with us where we can take their eggs if we protect them from predators and from themselves (a footprint can be consider as a valid signature)
2. Euthanize in a painless way the perfectly healthy one day old useless male chicks, because mercy and economics cannot be ignored
3. Be polite with the hens when taking their eggs, because manners also counts
4. Cut the meals of the hens in order to add more emotion in their somewhat boring lives (if they have the brain to perceive it)and increase their productivity
5. Put the portrait of the most productive hen of the month in the wall in order to stimulate her co-workers
6. Once the hens are retired, pay a wonderful truck trip for them to the place where they will find they much deserved rest. And don't forget to not feed them in their last hours because they can feel nauseated during their shaking trip.
7. Now, it's time to eat this wonderful omelet!
This is great. I love all these comments. especially Claudio.
I definitely agree that "free range" can be used loosely, so loosely that they really aren't any better. But remember that organic comes pack to the pesticide free, sustainable farming methods used to grow the grain the chickens eat. There is a whole chain of events going on here...it's not just the egg.
I also like what one reader said, that when chickens are in an appropriate size coop and family, they don't peck each other hence beak removal is not necessary.
Once again, thanks for the info....http://www.thewishingwellness.com
The Free-Range Myth:
http://www.peacefulprairie.org/freerange1.html
It isn't a myth when you take the time out of your busy schedule to actually go meet the rancher and inspect his farm. Then you can tell what is actually free-range and sustainable. Another plus for local foods instead of stuff trucked/flown from half-way around the world. I know where my meat and dairy products come from. I know the animals are taken care off properly and humanely. If more people did so then we wouldn't need factory farms. Being vegetarian or vegan is a good step for many. However it is a personal choice and not something that should be forced on people so that they resent it.
a comment about the original story:
for anyone who knows anything about biology, there _is_ an answer to the "chicken and egg" question. it is obvious that the first chicken egg came from a bird that was _not_ a chicken, and the mutation was beneficial so the species continued to propogate.
for the _chicken_ to have come first, a creature that was _not_ a chicken would have had to morph _into_ a chicken after it was born, and _that_ is biologically impossible!
Wayne, not sure who you think is forcing people to be vegan....as seen on this thread, some people think free-range/cage-free eggs can be produced humanely. I'm simply saying they can't be. Of course, people have a choice, but I would hope it's not based on the misinformation coming from some groups mentioned, which promote a false impression of this farming.
Here's something from the link I posted:
"No matter where the egg production facility is, or what the 'visible to the public 'conditions are, the egg-laying hens are obtained from the same hatcheries that kill the baby rooster chicks at only one day old. If the "free-range" farm hatches its own chicks, two important questions still remain.
1. What happens to ALL of the male chicks – not just few token roosters – ALL of them?
2. What happens to the hens when they are no longer laying enough eggs for this facility to be profitable?
If the spent hens and ALL of the roosters were allowed to live out their lives until they died a natural death – chickens can live well over a decade – then that farm would soon have thousands of "spent" hens and roosters to care for. Obviously, the lifelong care of all of those birds, at all stages of a natural life span, would cut severely into any profits made by selling the eggs of younger hens.
So what happens to ALL of the boys? And what happens to ALL of the spent hens?
Hens are generally considered spent by egg-laying facilities at one to two years – meaning, the farm then has to provide predator-proof shelter, food, veterinary care, etc. for that same hen, for another decade. The roosters will require dozens of separate yards, predator-proof shelters, food, vet care, etc. for their entire lives.
In order to make a profit, the numbers simply don't add up unless the inevitable killing of roosters and spent hens is occurring."
I commend the patience of all of you who have had to deal with the comments of abolitionist extremists coming here to "educate" you.
"Abolitionist extremists?" I'm not sure what that means, but it sure sounds ominous. I don't know about you, but I align my actions with my belief in nonviolence. I align what I do with the notion that humans have no right to use sentient beings without necessity. It's simple and it's easy to do. It's not extreme at all. It comes from the desire to not be a hypocrite.
Mainstream America does indeed need to be educated. Most people have no idea where their food comes from or how animals are treated, and they aren't thinking critically about what corporations, advertisers, governmental entities, or NGOs say about nutrition, food, animals, diet or the environment.
Ridiculing the intentions of others to educate when education is sorely needed is unkind and unnecessary. Though education may indeed require patience, it first requires an open mind.
Thanks for demonstrating my point. You're here to "educate" all of us woefully ignorant people who don't adhere to your extremism.
Good luck with a position that would make hitting a squirrel with one's car a form of manslaughter. Oh no - I used a sexist term! That's oppression, too! The world is so horrible and imperfect!
"Though education may indeed require patience, it first requires an open mind."
The presumption there being that you're the one to educate us all and that you have an open mind and those who aren't abolitionist extremists are closed-minded and ignorant.
To those of you who are unaware of how extreme these people are, they consider PETA to be sellouts and too moderate. Yes, you heard that right.
You're also the same person who made her 9 year old goddaughter cry by making her feel ashamed of riding horses - something she loves to do. Anything for the cause, right?
Extremist.
I can't believe I'm even dignifying any of that. This is hardly the forum for unfounded personal attacks. I made general statements about mainstream Americans and I stick by them.
If anyone wants to know what actually occurred with my goddaughter, go to:
http://www.animalperson.net/animal_person/2007/08/on-my-goddaught.html
Have a peaceful day.
Thanks, but I wade through enough dysfunction at home. This is the first forum I've opted out of in some time, and I can't get away fast enough. Fight on, valorous warriors. Or pummell each other with words. Whatever.
"Unfounded" personal attacks? It's an entirely factual statement, yet someone who proclaims to be here to "educate" us all of a sudden thinks facts are attacks?
I just think it's important that good people trying to do good things should know where these little forays into their space come from and who they're dealing with. You think it's perfectly fine to make your 9 year old goddaughter feel guilty and miserable for loving horses from riding them. The vast majority of decent human beings know the difference between their own causes and beliefs and inflicting suffering on innocent children who don't have the capacity to understand the absurd little distinctions within the small ranks of animal liberation extremists.
Ideal Bite is about giving people pithy notions on a regular basis to help improve their lives and the world as well. It's not about staking out a position which will never manifest in this world for the sake of some sort of smug self-satisfaction whose central notion is that nearly every human is less intelligent, less ethical, and less aware than some person who clearly has too much time on their hands and doesn't know how to use it productively for practical, positive change.
I'm done giving you attention. Please have the last word and dominance of this thread where you don't belong nor are welcome.
Percy, we explain why cage-free eggs are not humane, and you call that "extremist"? Very well then, what's you're idea of "humane"? If you think killing male chicks, and spent hens after a year or two is humane, I think you have a weird sense of kindness.
I gather posters here are conscientious consumers. Most people who buy free-range products are not aware of the cruelty involved. When I choose products, I want to be informed. If you think ignorance is bliss, and refuse to hear anything that contradicts your view, why don't you opt for a private email group.
Your twisted description of Mary's story about her godchild makes it obvious you don't value truth.
What kind of insecurity drives a person to append "Ph.D." to their name, especially online, and especially when that title isn't relevant to the topic of discourse?
Does Noam Chomsky sign his writings as "Noam Chomsky, Ph.D."?
My doctorate in Applied Linguistics from New York University is tailor made for this discussion, thanks for asking. What is a "happier" chicken, what do you mean by "humane" or "cruel?" Why would you use the word "vehemence" or "extremist?" Why is "educate" now derogatory? My daily blog is dedicated to "deconstructing the language, economics and ethics of our relationship with nonhuman animals." These are the things that interest me. My intention by bringing attention to the language people use is simply to make us all think.
I'm not quite sure why anonymous individuals, or anyone else, feel it necessary to ridicule me for that.
I bid you a fond farewell. I'm sure you will be thrilled to not be questioned anymore.
"An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argument in logic, consisting on basing the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge or position of the person asserting it. It is also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source. The corresponding reverse case would be an ad hominem attack: to imply that the claim is false because the asserter lacks authority or is otherwise objectionable."
see also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_insecurity
I just like to ask to the ones who strongly oppose animal rights to present a short essay explaining exactly why the idea of granting basic rights to all sentient beings is so heinous. We are all ears and maybe we can change our views.
That's irrelevant, Observer, since Mary's doctorate is not in question here-- you're just side-tracking the real issues.
If one can't perceive how silly it is to presume that one is the "educator" without the assent of the others present, then one is certainly lost.
Wayne, why would you not include the transportation of feed, animals, and meat products with the meat industry? It’s included in their operation costs (and government subsidies), take those aspects away and the large-scale meat industry ceases to exist, (or will need serious restructuring). Sure, visiting a farm is a plus, but the transportation of feed, animals, and meat products is one of the most important environmental reasons in your avocation of local food. Drinking Fiji brand bottled water is environmentally equivalent to drinking tap water so long as you don’t factor in that it’s transported from a remote island in the south pacific ocean and transport is facilitated by packaging the water in a plastic bottles.
But okay, the U.N. report may or may not be flawed. However, to whom is the United Nations pandering to? What covert agenda was being pursued as a reason to produce the livestock report? Ecological Economics (2002) made the same claim that livestock uses more land than plant agriculture. The Lancet Medical Journal UK (2007) recently made the same overall charges regarding livestock and the environment. These peer-reviewed reports do not exist in a vacuum; they site other studies in their bibliographies. Who or what agency is the mastermind coercing these independent counsels comprised of international scientists and researchers to produce such “mere propaganda”?
If a large portion of the worldwide scientific community were in some way influenced to creating mere propaganda, would you please direct us to an unbiased source to dispute the environmental claims regarding livestock made by these organizations?
Raising a point that may or may not be contrary to someone else’s beliefs is not forcing anything; so long as everyone is polite, its discussion. Well, it may force people to think, but your own comments on this issue provoke the same reaction, and personally, I don’t resent it, I appreciated reading your input.
Paper of plastic? There is no requirement to accept stores’ bags; you can bring your own.
Free-range or caged? There is no requirement to eat chickens’ eggs; there is no nutritional need.
There is nothing extremist about bringing your own grocery bag shopping. There is nothing extremist about not eating chickens’ eggs. Both are small departures from the cultural norm with defensible environmental benefits.
The high degree of lengths Jessica V described in what is involved and why in subjecting chickens to factory farming in order to consume their eggs was posted in an attempt to reassure everyone of egg production techniques, but it served to heighten concern. (Maybe that was the actual intent?) Ignoring the aspects presented by professed vegans and based solely on the commentary by people who consume chickens’ eggs: Wayne says non-organic eggs don’t “taste as good”. Jenny says conventional and organic eggs cause her “posterior to stink.” And Deb says chickens go cannibal in poor conditions [mad chicken disease?], store bought eggs, organic or otherwise “may be weeks old”, and mentions the salmonella hazard.
Apparently I can’t trust government labeling, and I’m not sure I can trust the farmers markets’ eggs unless I somewhat routinely visit their farm and I’m probably about 40 miles away from the closest local farm. Taking it to the next level I and the other 8,000,000 people in New York City may need to violate residential zoning laws and compromise public safety concerns by raising chickens in our backyard, or for me specifically, on the roof of my building since I live in an apartment. At this point, this all sounds far more extreme than not eating chickens’ eggs in the first place.
Percy hasn’t added anything to this discussion other than name calling, airing out a grudge, attacking fictitious and irrelevant assertions that no one ever made, and playing Internet forum police officer. There is no mention of eggs, chickens, or environmental choices.
Observer offers no insight into the pertinent subject matter either and no appeal to authority was ever made as an argument by Martin. Martin’s credentials were challenged by Observer and only then was the information offered. In effect, Observer was dismissing Martin on the basis of lack of qualification; an incorrect perception of lack of authority. So it’s an appeal to authority to make an argument and then citing the fallacy of appealing to authority when authority is produced.
Scrutinizing and commenting on someone’s Internet signature or credentials, and manufacturing physiological conditions of your opponent as a means to counter contention is called an ad hominem argument:
Wikipeida: An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the person", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.
Disturbing, isn't it?
"Percy and Observer's only retort was that they're too closed minded to be educated, which is a pretty sad argument, if you ask me."
Yes, since some insecure blowhard feels compelled to append "PhD" to their name and make 9 year olds cry, that makes me "closed minded" and in need of "education" from a bunch of lonely, sentimental militants who get off on moral superiority trips.
You really have it all down. Bullet proof.
I love eggs. I love local eggs. Fresh eggs from local farms are fabulous. And as long as the eggs at the market are kept cold, they should be fine.
I buy my eggs, milk, and some meat at the farmer's market.
Now, in terms of 'animal rights', I have no problem saying that animals should have a healthy, decent life. However, animals are the original cultivating tools. There are still many places in the US and the world where people rely on animals to survive.
A cow with a full udder needs to be milked. Chickens are good soil aerators and eat bugs and some weeds...
Instead of issuing blanket statements such as "all eggs are bad" and "no animal should be used by human beings" maybe we could get back to a better symbiotic relationship with animals, where there is a give-and-take. Where we care for them properly, and they care for us properly.
Cows with full udders should have calves to suck on them, as they have evolved to do.
A symbiotic relationship is mutually beneficial. The human/animal "relationship" is not symbiotic because one party benefits at the expense of the other.
This is the first time I've seen animals described as "the original cultivating tools". Actually, I think plants were domesticated about two thousand years before animals, but in any case, does a history of animals use make it right? You could say the same thing about the history of human slavery, without which human civilizations could not have prospered as they did.
Choosing a plant food diet is a choice among other options.
oh bother. I found this site trying to find local farmers who may raise animals humanely and to decipher what the labels meant. I was looking for some truth and I still can't find it. If anyone knows of some good farms that I am happily willing to drive to from NYC and check out, please post them here. I don't need to be told there are no good farms.. I grew up in Montana and I've seen them. I'm asking for a little help because I'm a little out of my element here and, yes, factory farming is the grossest thing I've ever seen, and, yes, I believe all the labeling is probably a pile of hogwash like most everything else fed to the public in this country. Thanks in advance for any info.. cause I think that's what this site is for. Although, I'm unsure now that I read all the arguing above.
coreythepup -- This may be too late to do you any good, but I've been researching humane farms near NYC. I went to the Greenmarket web site and looked at farms who sell dairy products. Then I went to their individual web sites. The three farms I've looked at so far *seem* to raise their animals pretty humanely. They are Cato Corner Farm, Ronnybrook Farm Dairy, and Hawthorne Valley Farm. Ronnybrook and Hawthorne are carried at the Union Square Whole Foods, but I'm not sure about Cato (which mainly does cheese). In tandem with my search for humanely produced animal products, I found about about CertifiedHumane.com. You might be interested in their program. After finding it, I decided to start contacting local farms and encouraging them to become certified by that program -- and writing to thank farms who have already been certified. It seems like an excellent way that everyone (even omnivores) can help increase humane farming. (This is all in the last couple of weeks that I've been doing this, so I have no earth-shattering news to report on this front. Also, the Certified Humane program also certifies meat in addition to dairy. I just haven't looked at those farms yet because I don't eat meat.) That's all I know so far.
PHOTO ALBUMS
Posted by: Jennifer Tyson | October 03, 2007 at 05:29 AM